Unknown Speaker 0:00
Well, my guest is about to begin a long overdue and well deserved sabbatical. After an exceedingly successful voyage at the helm of MSU as Michigan State University Extension. I have had the pleasure of interviewing him many times, most recently at the Sylvester Broome empowerment village in Flint. And it is a good, a great pleasure to welcome Dr. Jeff Dwyer to the MSU. Today, microphone. Good to see you again, Jeff.

Unknown Speaker 0:27
It's great to be here. Kirk, I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you again and, and appreciate so much the support that you and Russ and many others have provided to us over the years

Unknown Speaker 0:38
before we began with some of the topics such as heartiest congratulations on your five years as the director of Michigan State University Extension, and, frankly, having some personal experience with delayed sabbaticals. I know how much you're looking forward to some time for some new endeavors.

Unknown Speaker 0:56
I am and thank you for that. Although, you know, let me say I know you've heard me say many times in public, it is a privilege for me to be the director of MSU. Extension, it's, it's been the highlight of my professional career. I mean, it's not very often that you get to wake up every single day knowing that the organization you're a part of is impacting 10s of 1000s of people that day. And that's what it's like being the director of MSU Extension working with over 600 people who are immensely talented, located all over the state and just doing great work every day.

Unknown Speaker 1:32
Well, Jeff, well, we didn't rehearse this interview. But that's a perfect segue, because my first question, and I'm going to keep it kind of open ended here. But looking back over your five years, what are some of the initiatives of which you're the most proud? So

Unknown Speaker 1:46
one is I think that we have helped people understand across the state among all of our partner organizations, the true breadth of what MSU Extension is capable of doing. And so for example, we've historically been associated with agriculture with four H. But I think that over the last five years, we've helped people understand that we do a tremendous amount of work in healthcare, and that that's very important that we do a tremendous amount of work and community development. And that that's very important. And so I think that we've I've certainly tried through a number of efforts we've made with my colleagues to really broaden the scope of understanding of what MSU Extension is capable of. I think a second thing is, and you mentioned the broom center. And you and I have talked about our efforts in Flint. A great do. You know, one of the things that Flint did was remind people that MSU Extension is one of those rare organizations that doesn't have to go to a place like Flint, to help when it's needed, because we're already there. But given that we're there, we can help emergently. But we can also grow and so Flint's a good experience, because we've had extension agents in Flint since 1907. And when the Flint water crisis hit, really right at the beginning of my tenure as director of, of MSU Extension, we had in the neighborhood of 20 to 25, people working full time in Flint and Genesee County. Now we have well over 40, working there full time on a regular basis. And that's because we were able to build on the great people that were already there and helping Flint in this particular crisis, and bring in other resources to grow what we're doing there. So I think the ability to respond urgently in communities is something that people have a better understanding of. And then I like to think that we have also really helped our on campus colleagues become more aware of what it can mean to work with MSU Extension, and how that can really amplify their work. And one area I'll point out, Burke is that the three year moving average on our competitive external grant funding and MSU Extension is now $33 million a year. It's now the single largest revenue stream that we have. Others are very important. But my point in that is, we have grown that because of our collaboration with faculty all over campus. And so I'm very pleased. And then the final thing I'll mention, and I could go on and on. But the final thing I'll mention is, for a whole variety of reasons, including some very hard decisions that had to be made by my predecessors over 10 years ago, in the real recession period, and the loss of 80 to 90 staff in the in around 2010 plus minus one of the things extension had to really step back from is international engagement. And we've really reinvested there with the help of our colleagues that are Research and Doug Bueller and Kareem, meridia and many others. And I'm very proud of the fact that we're now actively engaged in places like India and whose Becca, Stan, and Indonesia and Ireland, where we can really make a difference by working with partners in those countries as well.

Unknown Speaker 5:16
Well, that's quite a, that's quite a litany there. And now that doesn't cover all of them. I've got a couple more here, I'd like you to comment on as well. Even before COVID hit, there were some really hard times in rural America, particularly on farms, and you'd launch some mental health initiatives. Now with COVID. I mean, these mental health problems, transcend rural America, and they're affecting all of us a little bit about some of the things that MSU Extension did. In terms of mental health.

Unknown Speaker 5:48
This is one of the areas I'm most proud of. And that is that. back about four years ago, we became very aware, as did our partners at the Michigan Department of Ag and rural development, as well as others, that there were some real struggles in rural America and on farms. And particularly, we were seeing, at least anecdotally, we thought an uptick in attempted suicides and completed suicides in farm communities and in farm families. And that was a great concern. And so we invested in our first experts in behavioral health at that time, three and a half to four years ago. And Kirk that's now grown to we now have seven full time people whose principal focus is mental health or behavioral health. And, and that's how big the need is. And what's fascinating about it is a couple of things. One is, as you know, that's not a traditional area of emphasis in extension. And so we did get a lot of questions at first about why are we doing this, you know, we should really be focusing on helping people grow things, and health really isn't our domain. And today, I can tell you that there's nobody that says that. And I think there's a there's, there's people are very grateful that we've been able to invest. And I think that's something that aligns with the ability to address emerging issues and communities is we have the ability to pivot and invest in new areas, by working closely with our partners and our funders. And that's one example. I think another thing that's important about it, is that I think we've been successful in addressing farm stress and mental health issues in rural and farming communities, because of our behavioral health, expertise that we now have in place, but I contend that we could have 100 experts in mental health and behavioral health. But without the more than century of experience and trust, built by our agriculture experts in those communities, we would never have gotten in the door. And so I believe that the success is really based on the fact that our agriculture experts who as individual sometimes had decades of experience, and and friendship and and in those communities, they were able to walk in the door with our behavioral health experts and really say, this is someone that's my colleague, this is someone that you should trust like me, and they have really important information that that that you could hear. And I'll say that this has been a transformation, I think within extension to Kurt so you know, some of our our educators that have been with us for a very long time. And and I think even they would admit that some of them were very skeptical at first about why would we focus on mental health? Why would we focus on behavioral health, particularly in farming communities. And some of them flat out told us that no one will come to your meetings. And one of the stories that I like best is that one of our outstanding educators on the agriculture side, who was pretty vocal about the fact that he didn't think that this was really a good idea that this wasn't a domain we should be in was in one of the very first public meetings and happened to sit next to an older gentleman, a decade's long farmer multi generational farming family that our educator knew for a long time. And about halfway through the presentation, that older gentleman farmer turned to our educator and said, We need this where has this information been all this time, and I later learned that that gentleman became part of a group of local farmers that met on a weekly basis. They may still meet on a weekly basis, but at least they did for a very long period of time, precisely so that they can take the education they learned about tech in on your own Colleagues, check in on your friends, ask them questions if you're concerned about them. And they use those weekly opportunities to have a cup of coffee together as a way to check in on each other. And I think that's the power of all of this is it's about the fact that we're able to be embedded in communities. I mean, we go to church with the people we serve. We we see them in the grocery store, and the amount of trust that can be built in that and then alongside that, to be able to bring the expertise and the programming and, and the talent of a great land grant university, literally to every community in the state of Michigan. It's it's really remarkable.

Unknown Speaker 10:41
I'm Claire kaisi. Paramus you Today I'm talking with Dr. Jeff Dwyer, who's embarking on a very well earned sabbatic, after five years at the helm of Michigan State University Extension, another very timely issue. And I mean, it's a it's an it's an international issue, but it's a major national concern. Especially over the last few years, but that's the whole matter of diversity, equity and inclusion. And I know that Michigan State has been moving aggressively forward in that area, but so did MSU. Extension, under your leadership.

Unknown Speaker 11:20
Let me say at the outset, my own personal view as it relates to diversity, equity and inclusion is that it's not just an important thing to do for a whole list of reasons that you and I could put a number here. But it's what will make us better. And I think it's it's understanding that that has really helped the work that we've done in MSU. extension in particular, and let me say that I've learned a tremendous amount over the last five years in particularly in the last year, and have been pushed and prodded by my colleagues in extension, who cared deeply about this. And let me share some of the things that we've done. So first of all, I've been very public, including in my file extension conference, presentation for our entire staff of 600. Plus, that, that racism is a public health crisis. And that it's something we need to be thinking about literally every minute of every day. And I think that has really helped to reinforce the importance of this from an organizational perspective. But really, what we've been able to do is driven by individuals that are raising their voice every single day. So back in June, we started weekly, they're now bi weekly, but they were weekly for several months, what we called directors listening sessions on race and racism. And we've never had less than 100 people on listening sessions, we have often had more than 200. And if I had to pick, I'd say we average between 150 and 175, every single session. And it's an opportunity, certainly to learn. So this past Monday, we had a really an outstanding presentation from a colleague at Colorado State, on indigenous populations and on how to engage and understand in that environment. But it's often an opportunity for our people just to share. So as you know, as well as I do, there have been a number of things over the past several months, completely separate from COVID in some cases, but sometimes associated with COVID. That have have caused all of us to think about a lot of different things. And this has really been an open forum for us to share for us to support each other. It's also been an important environment in the COVID context to talk. We've been very fortunate that we've not lost any of our staff in MSU, extension to Coronavirus. But I have many colleagues and extension in particular of the state who need more than one hand to count the number of family members and friends that they've lost. And so there is variability in the impacts of COVID. And so these listening sessions led to the development of affinity groups of our black colleagues of our of our colleagues of color, and also white ally affinity groups, where people have a safe environment to talk about what is it like to do their jobs every day, and deal with racism, and those sorts of things. And we've learned a tremendous amount. And now we're just so pleased that with the support of the college and the university, we have the option opportunity to fill a number of positions across the state a number of different areas and extension in coming months. And we're really focused on using this as an opportunity to make sure that this cohort of individuals, mirrors the people we are serving. But frankly, perhaps more important mirror mirrors the people that we should be serving, but aren't yet. And so this is a tremendous emphasis for MSU. Extension. It's one I've tried to be a helpful part of in my leadership role, but I can I can absolutely say that it's an area that will continue to be a major area of focus for extension for a long time.

Unknown Speaker 15:46
And hopefully, for Michigan State University and hopefully for the society at large. No question about that. Absolutely. Another area. Jeff Dwyer, his course the environmental challenges, and we'll get to some of the challenges in a moment, but a little bird told me that you participated in the Great Lakes environmental camp. Now, you would think I would have heard that we had, I guess it was maybe kind of like boot camp or something. But tell us about that. And What impact did that?

Unknown Speaker 16:21
Yeah, I mean, one of one of the great experiences I've had, while being director of extension, I spent a little over a day, including overnight at our Great Lakes Natural Resources camp up in the northeast part of the Lower Peninsula. And, you know, I guess a couple of things come to mind. One is just how engaging the youth are, that participate in those kinds of opportunities and, and just so thrilled that we're able to be a part of giving them that opportunity. Secondly, I saw some of the most amazing colleagues provide science base education, literally standing in a lake literally standing in the way that I've ever seen. I mean, that people that I get to work with, are capable of doing that without a blackboard without a whiteboard. Without a PowerPoint. It's really quite remarkable. And then the third thing that the little birdie might have told you is that I was part of a demonstration of sea lamprey. And I not only held which was an interesting experience, but then I was invited to perk it on my forehead. And I ended up with quite a hickey on my forehead from that sea lamprey.

Unknown Speaker 17:44
Yeah, Michigan States does some amazing research related to the sea lamprey, we cover that a few times on on old greening of the Great Lakes program. You know, we talked a lot about things that they you feel really good about. Your colleague, Patrick cudney, will take over as interim director, as you move on to your sabbatical. What are some of the major challenges that Patrick will face as his team gets in place?

Unknown Speaker 18:12
Yeah, it's a great question. And Patrick has just been a marvelous colleague, and, you know, I, I get credit for a lot of success that we've had in extension over the five years that I've been in this role. But I'm, I would be remiss if I didn't say that virtually none of those things I get credit for, would have happened without the leadership partnership that I've had with Patrick over these five years. And, and, and MSU Extension is in very good hands under his leadership in the coming months. But I think the challenges are in a few different domains. One is that I think that we've shown that MSU Extension can impact communities in ways that we have historically, but also in new ways. And we have grown pretty significantly over the past five years. And there is the potential to grow significantly more in terms of the human resources we have on the ground to do the work that we do. And so I think one challenge is going to be finding increased revenue streams, perhaps new revenue streams, but certainly growing the streams that we've introduced in recent years around Contracts and Grants around new partnerships that didn't exist before, and also philanthropy. So continuing to build in those areas will be a challenge. I think another challenge will be as happens every decade after the census data becomes available, which it soon will is that we establish new baseline contracts with all counties across the state. And so I think those are always challenging conversations. And we have enjoyed such great support from counties over 100 years, including, while we've worked virtually over the past year. And so I anticipate that everything will go very, very well. But it's a challenging series of conversations. And you know, it, Patrick would be the first to tell you, if you understand one county in Michigan, the 83, you understand one county of 83, that they're all different, that there may be a few common elements and threads that run through them off, but they each have their unique needs and opportunities and things like that. And then I think one of the challenges, but I'm very, I think Patrick will, will provide great leadership in this domain is to continue while growing the organization to enhance diversity. And then to really not just recruit into the organization, but to do everything possible to retain the outstanding people that we've shown that we can recruit. And so I think that that those are at least three things that will be challenges. But I know that we have a whole leadership team working with Patrick that will make that happen. And frankly, I'm very excited to watch what what occurs over the next few months and years.

Unknown Speaker 21:29
My guest is Jeff Dwyer, who is embarking on a sabbatical and will return to the faculty in two colleges, the College of Agriculture, natural resources and the College of human medicine. And another area that you're a sociologist, and so I mean, this might be kind of a tough one. But organizations change, as you well know, you're the CIO side of me, you know, I'm not the sociologist, but culture has changed over time. Would you? How would you characterize any major changes, you've often been cited for helping to the culture evolve, I guess would be a good way. How has extensions culture evolved? Do you think and moved in different directions during your tenure,

Unknown Speaker 22:16
one important outcome of more people knowing about the great work that we do, and the diversity of the work that we do, is that our people are more regularly being made visible in their roles. And so I think that we've changed the culture, some in terms of the pride that people have, being a part of Michigan State University Extension. But Kirk, I'll extend that to being a part of Michigan State University. And I think this is really important. So I think maybe if you and I went back and listen to our very first interview, one of the things that I was struck by when I started in this role was that I would have some colleagues and extension that would say, Well, I'm a part of Michigan State University Extension. But I'm not a part of Michigan State University. And I would sort of scratch my head as an outsider and sort of wonder, how actually does that help because it happened, because it says Michigan State University and the title of your organization is as Michigan State University, on your green paycheck, you know, how does that work, but what it helped me understand is that is a bigger thing. And that is that I think that as a university, we had gotten away from feeling some ownership over MSU Extension. And I think those in MSU Extension, had kind of gotten away from feeling that connection to the larger university. And so I do think we've changed the culture in this regard. And so we focused a great deal in my early couple of years on the notion that, and I would repeat often, to my colleagues, that you may be the only Michigan State University that people know in your community. And we we focused on making sure that our people had MSU Extension and MSU branded gear that they wore when they did their programming, which we had gotten away from and those sorts of things. So I think we've changed the culture. You know, it's not perfect, but I think we've changed the culture, both in terms of the extent to which MSU Extension colleagues feel a part of MSU but also the extent to which my colleagues at MSU understand that MSU Extension of the part of who they are to, and, and a very important part of who they are. And then I think that we've changed the culture, in terms of being able To respond emergently to issues, and sometimes in new areas. And so, you know, it's not unusual in a large, complex organization like MSU Extension, you know, you sort of get stuck in these ruts of, well, these are my goals for the year, and this is my work plan, and, you know, something new pops up, and you're like, well, that's not on my work plan. And therefore, well, I'm here to tell you COVID-19 was on it, not on anybody's work plan. Here we go, right. And so we came to the culture there to Kirk and understanding that, that, you know, if someone's standing in front of us, and they have a problem, or they have a health need, or they have some other need, that we can address, our job is to figure out if we can do that, and if we can't do that, to get them to the people who can. And so, I'm a big believer in the fact that, you know, organizations need the right leader at the right time. And I think that, you know, selfishly I like to think that that someone with my background, something with sort of a alternative perspective on some things, has been useful in extension over the last five years. But I also think it's a good time for another leader to come on board. And as Patrick fills an acting role, and then quit and Tyler will fill an acting role. And and Dean, Hendrick will lead a national search. And I think it's going to be very exciting to see the range of people that will be attracted to this job, because of the great work that my colleagues do.

Unknown Speaker 26:57
Jeff Dwyer, you mentioned, maybe over the years, some of the disconnect between the university and Michigan State University Extension, historically, there's sometimes been disconnect within extension between the campus and the field. If you took sort of your own some of your own personal initiatives, though, to bridge that, that gap that's occurred off and on through time. I mean, you did that tour of all the counties. You call folks up when something's going? Well, I think you call them kudos calls or something of that nature. You welcome new employees into the organization with phone calls within a week or two of their hiring, those sorts of things. Certainly, certainly enhanced cultural change.

Unknown Speaker 27:44
I think they do, Kirk and and, you know, you refer to the, the tour of the state that I did in 17 weeks, in the summer of 19. remarkable experience. But you're absolutely right, I think it's important that, you know, one of the things that that did, because of the social media and other things that we did is it, it really helped people understand that we truly are engaged in every single county in a number of different ways. And, you know, people can track me sort of on a map going, as I my way through all the counties and districts and everything. And and I think, you know, a big part of the point was, we have an impact everywhere. And we want people to know that. And so I think that is a part of culture change, I think that a part of culture change is, as you point out to, I'm just a big believer in the fact that at the end of the day, I'm just a part of it of the team. I have said many, many, many times that it's very fortunate for me that there's a role of director in MSU Extension, because I'm incapable of doing anything else in the organization. I do not have the expertise of any of my 600 plus colleagues in the organization. And so I'm lucky that there is this role of director that I could build for this period of time and therefore be part of a team. And as I said in my my remarks to our entire staff at our all staff monthly webinar a week ago. You know, I listed some things that I'll miss in this job and tried to be a little humorous with some of those. But I ended by saying that, that the thing I'll miss most is being a part of the team. And I just think that's very important because I think that it's easy in these large complex organizations to sort of be viewed as, as the person at the top of this immense hierarchy. And that's just not how I think of it at all. I also think, and this is just, you know, we all bring our own styles and perspectives to these jobs, but I believe I always felt like it's been very important that people knew me as a human being. And it's impossible for me to really know all 600 plus people. And so I've tried to find ways over the years to share with people in a way that help them understand the larger point I was trying to make, but also understood that it was personally important to me. So I'll give you a couple of examples. Honestly, I think one of the reasons that we were able to change the culture so quickly within the organization, around mental health, around behavioral health, and those sorts of things, is because in 2017, during my fall extension conference talk, when I was talking about why this was important, and why it was important that as an organization we invested in this area was that as I looked out across the audience, that we knew by the numbers, because there were 600 people sitting there, we knew by the numbers, that somewhere between 50 and 100, people in that room had some significant experience with severe depression. And then I went on to say, that included me. And so I think that people in leadership roles have to find what their comfort level is. But you've gotten to know me a bit over the last five years and my close colleagues and extension would, one of the things they would say is that my foot is always on the gas. And, and when it's clear to me that we need to do something or change something, I want to get there in an appropriate fashion in an appropriate timeframe. But I don't want it to want it to take any longer than it has to. And so I felt strongly at that time, that if I could speed things up in terms of culture change around the importance of mental health and behavioral health. By sharing my own experience in that regard. It was worth doing. I've also shared a bit about my family, at times, and my colleagues will tell you that.

Unknown Speaker 32:35
And people who know me, well know this, but most wouldn't know this. I mean, I can't talk about my family most of the time, in those kinds of situations without getting emotional. And it becomes very clear that I'm emotional. And, and I think that it is important that people understand that I feel that deeply. And then you may also have heard that at times, I have also sung in front of our entire organization,

Unknown Speaker 33:03
I keep a close eye, my eyes wide open all the time, like deeply.

Unknown Speaker 33:24
I worked really hard. I'm not a good singer. I like to have fun with it. But but it's been a way on a couple of occasions to make some larger points that I was trying to make, while also showing some vulnerability on my part. And the first time that I did that it really was around this trying to change the culture in terms of stretching ourselves into new areas and responding immediately to people because part of my point was I just saying a part of a Charlie pride song in front of 600 people, aka if I can do that. You can do what you need to do.

Unknown Speaker 34:08
When I'm gone When I'm gone, you're going to miss me when I'm gone. miss me. Okay, let's try it again. You're gonna miss me by my walk. You're gonna miss me by my talk. You're gonna miss me when I'm gone. I'm gonna miss me by my walk. You're gonna miss me by my talk. Oh, you're gonna miss me when I'm gone.

Unknown Speaker 34:38
For those folks out there listening who aren't too familiar with extension, or maybe they are familiar with maybe a four h piece or an ag piece or the Flint Water piece. What would you say as you stepped down from the directorship, but what thoughts would you leave to the I guess the citizens of Michigan I would say to

Unknown Speaker 35:01
Residents of Michigan those that have worked with us so in the past and those that haven't reached out, go to our website@extension.msu.edu, where we now have nearly one and a half million visitors per month, because of the outstanding contact content there, reach out through the university, it will find its way to us, but also reach out in your communities because because I have colleagues who you're sitting next to in the church pew, I have colleagues who you're standing next to six feet apart now in the grocery store line. And, and the great thing about my colleagues and MSU Extension is if the individual that you're interacting with or questioning doesn't have the expertise that you need in that moment, it's important to remember that they have more than 600 colleagues all across the state that they can reach out to immediately. And they have more than 3000 faculty and staff colleagues at Michigan State University that they can reach out to as well. And so I really hope that residents of Michigan increasingly see MSU Extension as not just the window into solving their immediate problem, or even just the window into the larger framework work of a great land grant university of michigan state university, but really a window into solving some of the the most important issues that they're dealing with as an individual, as a family and

Unknown Speaker 36:43
as a community.

Unknown Speaker 36:44
Well, once again, I've had the great pleasure of talking with Jeff Dwyer as he steps out after five successful years as a director of MSU Extension. Jeff, thanks so much for your time and obviously all the best during your sabbatic and all the new adventures that you're going to come after that

Unknown Speaker 37:00
well thank you very much and again, I want to say Kurt to you and to Russ and so many others that have supported me personally provided these kinds of opportunities over these years I'm I'm really grateful and I'm looking forward to contributing in other ways I yet unknown

Transcribed by https://otter.ai