Unknown Speaker 0:00
Today we're joined by Monica Ramirez Montagut, the new director of the MSU broad Art Museum. here on campus at East Lansing. Monica joined the brode in July of 2020. Before coming to East Lansing she directed the Newcomb Art Museum at Tulane University in New Orleans for six years, creating socially engaged exhibitions, such as persister voices of incarcerated women, and featured photographer Latoya Rob Frazier's project Flint is family addressing environmental justice at the MSU brode. Her first initiative was a community powered installation and titled acts of care, where local individuals submit nominations for honoring those who have taken care of our communities during this pandemic. So Monica, thanks so much for joining us today.

Monica Montagut 0:57
Thank you, Bill. It's my pleasure to be here with you today.

Unknown Speaker 0:59
So tell us a little bit about what you've got coming up at the brode? What, what what people can expect to see, maybe when they when we hit Well, I guess first let me ask the question. Is the art museum open right now?

Monica Montagut 1:15
Yes, we are. So that's a very good question. And we have a opening. We are open to the public right now. We opened on September 1 with the advice, capacity that's been instructed to public venues. So we comply with all the guidelines set forth by the campus, and the governor and so forth. But what has been on view has been a fabulous exhibition of the work of our students. The Masters in fine arts students have an exhibition right now at the museum, and that's on the lower floor. And on the second floor, we will open on November 7, an exhibition on the car culture, particular to our Michigan area, how had How does the car culture shape our minds, our cities, our ideals as Americans and how some of those ideals maybe have not played out as well for a lot of folks. So we have a we're celebrating but we're also taking a critical look into the car culture of the United States and in particular, telling the stories of a lot of folks here in our East Lansing, area.

Unknown Speaker 2:24
That sounds really fascinating and and certainly appropriate for a from Museum in, in mid Michigan. And yeah, as as a museum on on a college campus and on ours here in in East Lansing. What are the unique roles that the broad Art Museum has, because it's part of Michigan State, right?

Unknown Speaker 2:49
what it took a tremendous asset to be linked and nested in such a prominent and respected university as a Michigan State University. What a University Museum has that few other museums independent museums have is that we can actually go and chat with experts in any single field out there and have them kind of contribute with their expertise to the art exhibitions. So we can leverage that faculty expertise in many occasions to help us give context to some of the art that we have on view. So let me give you an example. The car culture exhibition that it's called interstates of the mind, about the car culture actually has featured some research from some MSU faculty members. One of that research is a program developed several years ago by the hollyanne summer research institute that interviewed some of the Latino Chicano Chicana x Latinx, our automobile workers in the in the automobile industry. And they were able to tell their own stories through these oral histories. And we have those we have the story of the Latino workers told in the museum. And by the same token, we have, for example, Professor john ironi flesner, who teaches urban renewal in Lansing, he and his students did a project on the construction of highway 496, from 1963 to 1970. And they kind of identified the impact that that had like the building that highway actually destroyed our traditional African American neighborhood there and they're kind of looking at the effects of, of that fragmentation of a whole community through the fabric through the construction of a highway, and so forth, you know, so so being in a University Museum, we're able to call onto the the willingness and the expertise of many faculty members from many diverse disciplines to help us provide some of that informal education but that is simultaneously various real education into these context, right? in art museums, you know, there, there are a lot of fun, I think, which is why working one, you know, they help us connect with each other. Art inspires us, art gives us a lot of energy. It also stimulates our senses and our intellect. So I think a lot of faculty members also enjoy this collaboration with a museum and seeing their work framed inside an art venue, instead of a classroom, I guess, must, must be fun for them as well. So it's really the perfect universal kind of stage, where we can really bring a lot of partners not only on the campus, but off campus to help us tell the stories of each other, and ourselves. Ultimately, what we learn in an art museum, we learn a lot about ourselves, and we learn a lot about the communities that we live in. And faculty certainly contribute to that.

Unknown Speaker 5:49
Yeah, no, that sounds, that that exhibit or the the, the work on, on the creation of Interstate 496, to me is particularly interesting, having grown up in Lansing, and at about the time that, that that project was under construction, so I'll, I'll be excited to see that. One of the things that I think maybe intimidates people or the, the idea of contemporary art, I think sometimes is is hard for, for folks to digest. And yeah, I think about going and seeing a, a Vermeer or or a Rembrandt or, or something people might think of is as classic art and, and maybe I tip my hand by having an interest in Dutch art is that's my heritage, but but but you can sort of see what the artist has done and and and then you go to look at contemporary art. And maybe it's it's a little harder for some people to to digest, you know, what, how do you how do you work through that with people and and help them understand what what they're looking at? And and and what it might mean?

Unknown Speaker 7:13
Thank you, Bill. You know, I do agree with you. Sometimes contemporary art may seem that we really don't understand what we're looking at unless we are art historians or art experts. So I certainly understand that. And that certainly happens to me sometimes when I walk into gallery spaces, I'd have no you know, no signage, no labels, no explanations, right that a lot is expected of me. So that is part of contemporary art, a lot of it is expected of the visitor. There's expected more participation, you know, when if you I mean, it's like going to a theater piece where someone or a concert where the audience is expected to clap and to participate. A little bit of that happens in in contemporary art museums. But ultimately, I do think that as museums of contemporary art, need to do a better job at explaining the the art on view, because I do think it's not easy. And it is not easy, because contemporary artists are always trying to create something that has just never existed before. So how do you do that? Right? How do you invent something that nobody has ever seen, nobody has even imagined. And you you create a visual culture object out of that. And of course, if there's no precedent for that kind of visual, it's hard for us to then recognize something that is just not familiar to us at all. And so it has these double takers, like I really don't understand what I'm seeing, which is very much sometimes the point is for us to become alert, again, for us to elicit our senses to try to reorient ourselves. So that not a lot place in contemporary are. But I also think that while that might be an exciting experience for many, many would desire to have a point of access, you know, like, just tell me what this means. So I then can have, you know, I can have a more deep experience. And so I make the parallel to learning a new language, right when when an artist creates something so new that we just don't have tools to recognize that or to understand it, I would say his eyes If I were trying to look at some, you know, hieroglyphics or another language that I've never learned, right? It does take and it's another language. So it takes an effort. It takes an effort from me to be willing to learn that new language, but it also takes an effort to whoever is exhibiting that art, you know, to give me some tools, tell me a little bit more on how to decipher, you know, the signs and the symbols and these metaphors so that I can then go ahead and continue my exploration. So I do think that you know, hopefully the folks that are listening, well will come to the museum and we'll find diverse points of access to the contemporary art. I think it defeats the purpose if someone walks into our museum, and they leave feeling like they didn't understand so it's a It's the job of the museum to start providing those points of access. And explaining, well, you know, this is an experimentation with a new material, or this is an image that came from abstracting, you know, a molecule, I think you you're having a conversation with a FabLab, you know, these days, so, they're, they're dealing more or less with the same issue, you know, they're discovering materials and forms and aspects that have never been seen before. So how do you recognize something new, you know, it's exciting, but we need to do a really good job at the Museum of explaining, you know, what, why is what you're looking at important? What are you looking at? And when, if not, what are the intentions behind the artists, and then, you know, just share that with you so that you have a good standing round to start. And then, you know, explore your own creativity and your own association of ideas and things like that.

Unknown Speaker 10:50
One of the, one of my favorite parts of our art museum is the building itself. And as a as a person who really enjoys modern architecture and, and was just thrilling to to be able to have a, a competition for the museum. And to have the the selection committee, select Zaha Hadid as the as the architect, what has it been like for you coming to this museum, where you're working on your different exhibitions and ways to use this space. But the space itself is, is a piece of art,

Unknown Speaker 11:32
I think I got a little bit of training in my, in my early career at the Guggenheim Museum, that is also a very iconic architectural building where the building is not a backdrop to the art, you're hanging on the walls. In the case of the Guggenheim, you cannot even hang a painting on the walls, because they're curved, and they're inclined, you know, and they have inclination to them. But I think that the complexity of the building and the, the added layer of creativity of the built environment where art is being displayed, this displayed, really adds to the experience, not only of the visitor, but of the whole environment. They are buildings that you have to get to know the building a little bit and play this little dance, you know, it's like dancing tango to a certain degree, you know, you go either you go this way or that way, but there's a certain negotiation and dance you have to do with the building, to, to make the art look good. So many museums are designed as white boxes, white cubes, we call them. And we know for sure that hanging anything in that space is going to make it look good. I mean, it's just, you know, the craft we've developed in museology. You know, and this is a particular setting for modern and contemporary architecture. When that space becomes challenging, then you the curators need to really think about the art in dialogue with the building, and give the building presence when it needs, you know, there's some views that you need to allow the building to have those views and for people to be able to look outside through the windows, you know, and then you need to learn create spaces where the art will be looking at its best. So it's a it's a kind of like a dancing inside the building with the art here are there views of the building here views of the staircase there. And it's a negotiation that does not happen in other museums, right. So anyone that works at the embassy abroad Art Museum must enjoy this negotiation with the space and with the building. And if you do enjoy that the results are just really terrific. Because you always have incredible views that just inspire your curiosity, and they elicit you to go to the other gallery space. So what is nice about the MSU broad building and the Saha design is that you're constantly being attracted to the next space and the next space. And once you are done with a museum, then the frame of the landscape around you the frames, the visual frames are also very appealing so then you want to go outside and enjoy the sculpture garden and things like that. So that's something that you need to understand when you work with a bill well

Unknown Speaker 14:08
I liked the way you phrase that and negotiation with the building that's really a beautiful phrase. And and I certainly can imagine that that that's what has to take place and and having spent some time at the at the Guggenheim Yeah, I enjoy the museum because you can take the elevator up and then it's a it's a nice sort of walk down hill, Lucky looking at whatever the the current exhibition is, but but that's another another building where there there is a there really is a negotiation with the space there and and I suppose that there are exhibits that are well suited and and then exhibits that probably aren't well suited, depending on the interior space available.

Unknown Speaker 14:53
Correct? You're absolutely correct. And I think the in the case of the Guggenheim II as you go down the ramp you also see us The people interacting with art, it's a, it's a kind of spectacle of people looking at art and the arts, you know, in this viral. And I would say that at the MSU, brode, we have that also. But I would say that the spectacle is more between indoors and outdoors, we have so many beautiful windows that frame the terrific outdoors of our campus, that I would say that the building actually is enticing people to, to go outside. And while they're looking at terrific art, and, and I would say that that's a spectacle, it's a spectacle of attention between the indoors and the outdoors. And it's just really terrific as an experience to go see art and feel like you're indoors and outdoors at the same time. It's quite unique. And I do believe that that's precisely why it is a masterpiece,

Unknown Speaker 15:47
it really is a special building. So one of the one of your areas of expertise is, is working through or creating exhibitions that are socially engaged, can you give us a sense of, of what that means and what it means to you?

Unknown Speaker 16:08
Um, so it's a very good question, what does a socially engaged art exhibition mean? It does follow a new contemporary art branch of making art, where artists are actually, their primordial material for making art, you know, may not be paint or may not be a block of marble, maybe the experience of their communities, maybe the obstacles of their communities, and that that's what they want to explore. And that's what they want to reveal in their artworks. And so that's taking, you know, a lot of different shapes in the art world, of course, but the way to socially engage exhibitions, basically focus on exploring through the lens of art, and, you know, creative metaphors, exploring issues that are critical to our the communities that we live in. So what are the obstacles that we have in our own communities that are precluding us to move forward together? And can we tell the story of that obstacle through the lived experience of people that are going through those? And can we use a museum as a storytelling hub, where folks come and tell us what's going on in their lives, and we get to understand ourselves and our communities a little bit better. And for that, actually, I think MSU is just absolutely the perfect setting to do that. Because we have strength in engaged scholarship. We have strength in working with our communities, learning from our communities, their lived experience, expertise, and then you know, helping all of us access that knowledge to then discuss in academic scholarly, setting. So for example, the exhibition that I did, to lane that will be coming to the MSU broad Art Museum, a year from now with a museum staff. It was the exhibition was created only in Louisiana, which is considered the prison capital of the world it incarcerates more people than any other state in the United States. And the United States incarcerates more of its own citizens than any other developed country in the world. So we just wanted to know why are our community was so impacted one in every 75 individuals in Louisiana, have had an encounter with the with the justice system. So we interviewed 30 formerly incarcerated women, and we gave those interviews to 30 local artists that then learn about the interviews and then they went in most locations to meet with a with a woman that we have given the interview that women now call themselves persisters. And so we these parents have an upper sister, as in a formerly incarcerated women and the artists together, they they they made artworks together. And those artworks are what is on view in the exhibition. And they tell the story of, of the women, many of the stories that they tell our stories about motherhood, you know, some 80% of the women in the prison system are mothers, right? So they were telling us the challenges of being a mother inside the prison system and some of the artworks, you know, just tell that story, or tell, you know, tell some stories of resilience, tell some stories of success. They also tell some stories about the challenges of reentry. And it's just to get through those exhibitions, what we do is we get to learn about communities that we may not have in our immediate environment, or that may remain in underserved and in some cases invisible, like incarcerated women. You know, it's a community that we don't have a lot of access to. And we were wondering who are these women in the prison system and what are they going through? And so that's what the exhibition let us let us know that a lot of these women are mothers, a lot of these women are their encounter with the justice system or victims themselves of other issues. And it just helps us understand the obstacles that we may have in order to be able to move forward together. But they're exhibitions that are visually striking artists have just such a tremendous talent and creativity, that they are able to turn into poetry, some of these stories that are about resilience and about strength and about overcoming obstacles. So that's where art is a very safe vehicle. For us to be able to learn a lot about each other, and about folks that we would, we would sell them come across with or any we do, we may not ask them you know about particular chapters in their lives. And art allows us to do that in a very festive, celebratory, uplifting kind of manner. That is a very good vehicle for addressing some of these issues.

Unknown Speaker 20:49
Now, I've I've always enjoyed that about the the broad Art Museum, you can go in and many of the exhibits, find ways to challenge your thinking, to, to challenge your ideas to teach you something new. You may agree, you may disagree. But but but I I rarely walk out of the museum when I'm not forced to think about something, perhaps a little differently than I had walking in the doors. And I think that, that that really enriches art, whether you agree or disagree with the artists perspective, that really enriches our community and enriches us as individuals to, to push our thinking and challenge us to see things in new and unique ways. And so I've Yeah, from my perspective, the broad Art Museum has has really been been enriching for for many reasons, but that in particular, one of the things that I was kind of stunned to think about, was that the Art Museum, which to many of us, seems like it opened yesterday, what we'll be celebrating its 10th anniversary, and only a couple of years. And yeah, I do remember like it was yesterday, our grand opening and the opening exhibition, and some of the really cool innovative cutting edge things that were done as part of that opening exhibition and and of course, the the great fun it was to have Mr. And Mrs. brode on campus for that celebration, and and Zaha Hadid, who, sadly has since passed away, but have you begun thinking at all about what, what you might do for the the 10th anniversary of a couple of years?

Unknown Speaker 22:36
Yes, Bill. Thank you. And, you know, time flies, right? I think that for for for many of you that were on campus, when the when the museum opened, it is a shock to see that it's already, it's already eight years, but it will be 10. And I think that one way to give visibility to that we may be throwing a party for 10 year olds at the museum, you know, on the day of the opening so that we see how much time as you know, past, physically in other prisons, but

Unknown Speaker 23:06
right that away, we're like, Okay, this is what 10 years look like. But yes, we have, I think it will be important to celebrate the building again, and you know, share those stories that gave shape to this building that similarly to contemporary art, there is a lot of reasons why the building has a shape it does while the building has the finishes on the facade, that it has the height on one side, that then goes up and meets the height of the buildings next to it on the other side. I mean, if you get to learn the ideas that gave shape to the building, it is very clear what's happening, you will have a full understanding, it's a building that tells us story very clearly, it's just like people need to tell us chapters which is a job of the museum. So I think it behooves us to do an homage to Zaha Hadid to have those stories that we want them to be part of our popular imaginary in East Lansing, we want everyone to understand why the building has achieved and and for to celebrate the building after 10 years, and see where we are, you know, and I know that some folks call it the shark. You know, well, maybe you know, maybe it's very accurate and maybe but maybe we can through this exhibition find other metaphors that go a little bit more in depth in to what sahas saw in our campus landscape in the culture of our Lansing area that then she tried to materialize in the building. So the idea is that we actually explain the building to all audiences from all backgrounds so one of the ideas is to have a coloring book on the building explaining the story you know, it starts shorts on one side because there were trees on the side of the building and then goes up higher on the other side because that the taller buildings are on that side. So it kind of you know dialogues with with the scales of the immediate surrounding in has these Metal pleated facade as homage to those, those workers in the automobile industry. So the automobile industry is very present in our culture, and what's the relationship we have with this kind of metal and this kind of work in the middle. And a lot of of the folks in the Lansing area have a personal relationship to that material. So all of that went into, into, into play for these building together with geometry and patterns. And it's not the same how you perceive the building, if you're walking, that if you're driving, and you're looking at it with movement, all of that, we need to explain better to our lands in communities lands, like Greater Lansing communities. And geometry, I think there's a lot of a lot of that can be linked to K to 12 curricula. And so the idea is to put all that in our coloring book that will be able to be distributed with our local schools, and hopefully will inspire everyone to see the building from different points of view, color, pattern, composition, material, height, scale, all of that, and just learn to love it the way that many of us had worked in the building to and better understand it. And so the idea is that to tell the story of the building for all audiences, and to be able to start weaving that those that those ideas about the building in in our everyday life, as something normal for us to be like, yeah, it's you know, it's a masterpiece, because you know, that the, the bottoms, lad like the lower level, has, I believe it's a two, two foot two foot deep kind of slab at the very bottom, that works more like a boat than the way that you would anchor a building. So there's a lot of also technical instructional innovation in that building that I guess a lot of people are not aware of. and So wouldn't it be fun to try to explain the building from the sense of view that, you know, it operates a little bit like a boat? Isn't that fabulous, right. And that's why art and architecture are just at the forefront of innovation and creativity, because they are able to do those connections for us in their, in what they build in the material culture they create. And so and the other idea for the anniversary is just really to highlight our collections, right? Never forget that we are a museum with a very important relevant art collection. A lot of the objects have been donated to us as gifts from MSU patrons, MSU alumni, our MSU faculty, you know, it's a collection that has been built by the community. And we want to pay homage to that coming together, and being the repository of all these material treasures of our region. And then you know, we do a succession things, we do have some money to go and you know, keep adding to the collection, but the core of the collection has been built by the people office Lansing, for the people of East Lansing. So it's a it's an important moment for us to honor and acknowledge that as well. Yeah, no, I

Unknown Speaker 27:51
imagine it will be a lot of fun. And as you say, the building really is very special, both in terms of its design and construction. And I recall the the the firm that there are several firms that worked together to build the building. And the work that went into finding just the right blend of concrete that would set in just the right way to handle the angles and the sloping walls was an extraordinary project that I don't think that that maybe they quite expected to be as challenging as it was, but at the same time was extraordinarily rewarding to see how they pulled it off. So it will be a very special time and, and I think something that that will be really great, great for our community as as the whole Art Museum has been so. So Monica, I always like to to wrap up these interviews with a fun question or two. So let me ask you, as a as a professional in the art world, is there a particular artists that is your favorite some somebody whose work really speaks to you in a special way?

Unknown Speaker 29:08
Yes. The short answer is many fortunately, because I you know, I need to know and admire a lot of artists to be able to program hundreds and hundreds of exhibitions through the years. But there is one artist in particular that I worked with him early in his career, at that I felt the the art world was not paying enough attention and I felt he needed proper recognition. And now he does have that recognition. And his his name is Brian Donnelly, but his artistic name, let's say is cos KW s and he started. He started he did a lot of things at the same time, but he also did some graffiti art in the New York streets, you know, in the 1990s. And he did a lot of as a creative person. He did also a lot of commercial product and he was Do you know the key will design toys for a limited edition market in Japan or he would design a shoe a tennis shoes for some important brands or, or watches or, you know, so what I liked about it, and then of course, he did art always and the, for him, it's a matter of having a creative energy in your being and just looking for diverse channels of implementing that diversity. So what I like about this artist is not only that his art is really a contribution to the art field, and it would probably fall under the category of pop art following, let's say, a Warhol and Jeff Koons, he, he gets inspired by a lot of very well known cartoon icons like Mickey Mouse or SpongeBob. And then he does his own take on those very well known popular, iconic images. And so but at the same time, he has his all all these other ways of expressing his creativity. And some of those have become actual businesses. And I like it. I like him as the work that he does, I like to that it represents I believe that the artist of the 21st century, where you you have a creative power, you have a creative power energy. And you actually work across disciplines where one discipline or one channel of creation inspires the other one. And you should not, you know, get so focused on one way of doing things that you're missing your opportunity, on communicating through your creativity with folks that want to access that creativity through other channels, you know, it can be a fashion design, it can be printing, it can be murals on the street, it can be t shirts, you know, he had a lot of of T shirts that he would launch Limited Edition. So I, that's an artist that I think it's incredibly interesting for our times, it's certainly an artist that a lot of young adults look up to, because he has been able to build his own artistic persona and career in business, in his own terms, and, and the work ethic of these artists is just impeccable. I mean, you know, it's an artist that is working all the time, and that everything has a hand on everything himself. And, and so not only the art, but the work ethic and the understanding of who we are today in the 21st century, and how we can be creative in our contemporary era. I think he embodies all of those aspects. So needless to say, we will be working with him in 2023, we will be having an exhibition by him. And I'm looking forward to revisiting that working relationship that we started about 10 years ago and see where we both are 10 years later. That's going to be fun.

Unknown Speaker 32:45
That will be a lot of fun. Well, Monique, I can't thank you enough for joining us today. It's been great to fun and and always interesting to learn about what's what's going on at the ELI neatest broda Art Museum on our campus at Michigan State University. And welcome, welcome people to come by and check out the exhibits as they come in. And, Monica, it's been a joy having you on the program today. And we wish you well in your tenure as the director of the Eli and Edith broad Art Museum on our campus. And we look forward to seeing you at the museum soon.

Unknown Speaker 33:25
Thank you. We look forward to seeing you there bill. And do let us know what your experiences were with the construction of highway 496. Because we are documenting that for our exhibition and to be able to share with other people their their experiences with a car culture. So we look forward to interviewing you as well and getting your feedback on all those exhibitions. Thank you for having us. It's a it's a treat, and we we hope people take the opportunity to visit the museum. It's really a very refreshing experience given our kind of working from home situation. I'd highly recommended I went to the museum today and I just had a blast. So I can certainly recommend the experience for folks that that want to be able to have an informal learning experience and it's an inspiring one, but within a very safe environment. So hopefully we'll see many of you at the museum soon.

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